Lerner posing in front of a BMW X5 during a rear seatbelt test in 2019. The photo is not related to the content.
Interview William S. Lerner
Regarding the Incheon EV fire, I urgently sought out William S. Lerner FRSA, an EV infrastructure specialist and risk mitigation consultant from the U.S., for a follow-up interview after a year. The previous interview focused on e-bike fires in New York, methods for mitigating EV fires, and considerations related to his patents. This time, amidst active discussions by our authorities on preventive measures for EV accidents, I wanted to hear the expert’s opinion on why it is crucial for OEM, first responders, garage owners, and the general public to be able to immediately identify EVs, hybrid cars, and gasoline vehicles, including all relevant information about the batteries.
written by Sang Min Han_han@autoelectronics.co.kr
William S. Lerner
He is an Electric Vehicle Infrastructure Specialist and Risk Mitigation Consultant, focusing on safety issues in the transportation sector, including fuel cell vehicles, hydrogen refueling stations, battery electric vehicles, electric vehicle charging, and fuel supply and infrastructure. Additionally, he is an independent inventor and a Fellow of the Royal Society of Arts(F.R.S.A.) in Manufactures and Commerce. He holds numerous U.S. patents and has additional filings in his portfolio aimed at expanding his work in the transportation and safety fields.
한글로 보기
Welcome back William! Your last interview by AEM was in November of 2023. Your patent offers multiple ways to immediately identify an EV, Hybrid or gasoline vehicle for first responders, garage owner’s and the public. We did not discuss the patent as a means to identify what EV vehicles are entering a garage structure, and what batteries the manufacturers used in specific EVs in the garage. This is an immediate focus after the Incheon garage fire that damaged 880 vehicles, 80 of which were complete losses, 600 insurance claims have been filed so far, and most importantly caused prolonged building evacuations 500 households, with cuts to power and lack of water to the building and surrounding buildings for 5-7 days, and sent 23 residents to the hospital. On Monday, August 12th 2024 the Korean Government, National Fire Agency and the Ministry of Environment, etc., plan to meet to discuss measures to prevent EV fires, especially in apartment garages, office building garages and shopping center garages, airport garages, etc. Please explain how your patent, ideas and information can help, and be implemented.
William: My patents cover vehicle identification in a multitude of ways. In fact, I was granted allowances for two additional patents in the past two months. That will bring my current total to eighteen. Of course I have many more patent applications pending, and continue to file for more in the infrastructure and EV spaces. Because the Incheon garage fire is the global focus now, I think we should focus on the infrastructure patent. The patent covers using a QR code or barcode which is scanned to understand the propulsion type, the specific year of production and the battery used. Using a wireless transponder, RFID tag, etc., as part of the vehicle or attached to it, we can send the information to the garage management or building management office, local first responders, police, etc. The garage owner/ operator will know exactly how many EVs, lithium-ion hybrids, hydrogen vehicles (which have lithium-ion batteries) and what types, models, and batteries (chemistries, number of individual cells, size, location of the batteries, country of origin, manufacturer, serial number of the battery, year produced, etc.) they have on board, and the specific location of the vehicle in the garage, on the bridge, or in a tunnel. This way first responders can understand exactly what they are dealing with, and where everything is located. One prominent, very popular, and iconic vehicle that was recently released as a hybrid has had many recalls for the battery pack, including notifications to the owners not to drive the vehicles. This vehicle presents unique challenges to owners, first responders and those in the vicinity. Why? The defective hybrid battery is located inside of the vehicle’s cabin, under the rear seat, not underneath the vehicle. When it fails, it can off gas inside the cabin, and when exposed to a spark, ignite. There are two documented occurrences of this happening. The roof of the vehicle blows upwards, and creates a shockwave. In one instance, it blew out the garage doors of a residential garage that landed over twenty five feet away. The technical explanation is a confined vapor cloud explosion (CVCE). This battery event is completely different from a conventional EV that has the battery located beneath the vehicle. This is a vehicle to ceiling event, not a bottom to side event which is what we expect. And, if you want to cool the battery as many do during an event, it would be a complete waste of time, water and resources if they sprayed beneath the vehicle. Seconds count, because batteries can fail in seconds without warning signs, like what happened at the Incheon event. Now you can understand why an Emergency Response Guides (ERGs) for each specific vehicle must be instantly available. You can have two virtually identical vehicles from the same manufacturer that are the same model, the same year, have the same badging, the same size battery, range and horsepower, etc. Manufacturers have identical models available globally with different batteries for different markets that are made in different countries. This is the focus concerning the EV that started the Incheon garage event. This is just a part of understanding what caused the vehicle to fail. I will go into detail about that in a few minutes.
When you interviewed me in November of 2023, EVs were easy to identify. They had fronts without grilles or air vents, and there were few models compared to today’s choices. Now, we are seeing removal of propulsion type from the sides and fronts of vehicles, and the latest trend is to make EVs look like gasoline vehicles with fake air vents in the front. It looks sportier, more aggressive and signals the car is a performance vehicle. Ironically one popular EV model’s front looks like a gasoline version with multiple grille and lower facade vents, while the entry level gasoline version looks like an EV of the past, with a solid grille. In the USA a high performance car is being released first as an EV, then an identical gasoline version. It is proudly being promoted with a fake exhaust sound that makes it sound like it has the former V8 engine. They have even given it a name, and the sound comes from the rear of the vehicle and is very convincing. Identification is very confusing to say the least, so my patent has become even more important and relevant.
To make matters even more confusing, many gasoline vehicles are mild hybrids, without any indication that they are. One prominent manufacturer has started placing the hybrid battery next to the heat producing combustion engine. The battery that is being used is a 48 volt, 22 kilowatt battery, and a 48 volt, 22 kilowatt hour battery is also used in e-bikes, which are producing fires and events globally.
In the Incheon electric vehicle fire, 23 people were hospitalized, 140 vehicles were damaged, and approximately 700 residents had to evacuate for an extended period. Power and water were cut off to the apartment building and surrounding buildings for five days.
Clearly this is valuable but why is knowing the make, model and what battery the EV has important?
William: Let’s for the moment assume that all current EV batteries are lithium-ion or lithium-ion variants like NMC, which was identified as being the battery used in the vehicle that started the Incheon event. Now that we understand the broad category of an EV battery, we must then look at the battery pack, or how the batteries are placed, cased and housed in the specific vehicle.
We tend to think of the battery packs as solid protective casings. When we do see fires, the battery packs vent the flames and off gas from the sides of the vehicles as designed, because the battery vents are typically placed there by manufacturers. Unfortunately, the public, regulators and many first responders believe this is the case for all EVs. This is no longer true.
In 2020 a leading EV manufacturer designed their battery pack on some vehicles, which are not identified by badging, to drop roughly eight thousand individual cells to the ground. The manufacturer stated that the reason for this design is to assist first responders in suppressing the event. We did not know about it until one of these vehicles dropped the hot cells which rolled, and shot like bullets denting a car fifty feet away.
Another manufacturer which started selling its vehicles in 2021, has modular battery packs that are cased in what looks like open milk bottle crates. You can see the individual batteries in the case. Why does this matter? It changes everything. Early on, first responders and suppression suppliers focused on lifting the side of the car and spraying it with a lot of water, at high pressures. Or they recommended tools that pierced the battery pack and flooded it with water.
This does not work if a vehicle’s battery simply falls to the ground, and it has no effect if there is nothing to pierce due to an open modular casings that hold individual cells.
Manufacturers also did not consider the effects of the massive amounts of water being used.
The water can mix with the broken battery cells, creating a flow of contaminated water. This is a byproduct of the EV event that can be an environmental disaster, because the drainage system of buildings were not designed to handle this. Using massive amounts of water can mean massive amounts of toxic water remain and are absorbed into the ground, if the EV is outside for example. Incheon’s fire will clearly help us understand the state of the water used, how it affected the building, where it drained to, etc. Compounding that is remediation. The vehicles produce toxins that leave their residue on the walls, ceilings, floors, air ventilation systems and we must look outside of the building to know what other areas the toxins that were released affected. Gas expands to fill the volume of its container, so we have to see this event not just as a garage event.
Lerner's proposed solution for electric vehicle fires includes installing electronic readers for barcodes or QR codes in typical parking booths, which then wirelessly transmit information about the vehicle's propulsion type to the parking structure or area.
My latest concern is that we know the toxic HF is generally a white plume of smoke that appears before an EV fire. We look for it and know it is to be avoided at all costs, however, what if the white HF mixes with smoke from other burning components blending into the dark smoke? At Incheon, eighty vehicles were "incinerated” as reported. What were they? They all did not release the HF at the same time, it could have been a rolling release of HF for the duration of the event. Additionally, the HF health effects may not appear for up to twenty four hours after the exposure and they can be debilitating. We are now seeing and documenting the effects on first responders. It can affect your eyes, lungs, bones, skin and create other long term health issues.
I don't know all the effects, because we are still trying to figure out the specific toxins released from all the battery types used. When asked, I educate first responders and police officers (and clearly volunteer my time as a public service), I am very clear that after the first suppression, the vehicle can re-ignite at any time, up to sixty days later. If the battery has individual cells, modules, or packs that were not part of the first event, new HF events can be perpetually repeated, as those cells, packs or modules fail for the first time. Everyone near an EV that had a fire event must be in SCBA (Self-Contained Breathing Apparatus) at all times. Does this happen? No. They suppress the first event, then the masks come off.
And, police officers who may be first to arrive and last to leave, have no protection, and often no training. I have seen the images from Incheon, which include the police and individuals inspecting the damaged vehicles not following proper protocols. This is a global problem.
Further complicating a fire like Incheon’s, is the HF or toxic off gassing’s effects post fire. The toxic emissions are yet to be fully understood, but what we do know is that there is no way to effectively clean or neutralize a fire blanket, and we are uncertain if first responders gear is 100% contaminant free after it is "cleaned". Now, think about what is left on the walls, in the ventilation system, hallways, and ceilings. When you "clean" post-event, you reactivate the toxins when wiping down the walls.
Then we must consider the damage to the structure itself. Gasoline vehicle fires burn at temperatures that do not typically affect steel. EVs typically burn between 4,000 °F to 5,000 °F and steel melts at 2,700 °F. Add to that, the 5,000 °F, will destroy smoke detectors, sensors, wires, and sprinkler systems. An EV event creates issues that a typical gasoline vehicle fire does not. And, believe it or not, this is a short summary of the issues. Speaking of sprinklers, tomorrow new sprinkler regulations will be discussed at the meeting of the Korean government. What sprinkler can withstand 5000 °F that is readily available? Currently Ultra high rated sprinklers withstand roughly 650 °F. And, sprinklers come from the top or sides of a structure or area. Where is the EV battery? Underneath the vehicle, so it is yet another vital part of hopefully suppressing, and containing the spread of the initial event, but the limitations are clear. There is no easy answer, and for me it involves a comprehensive system for making each structure as safe as possible, and virtually every structure is different. Including but not limited to: How many levels, how many chargers, height of ceilings, ventilation, exposed wiring, exit routes, entry and exit ramps, composition of floors and walls, and other vital factors.
I also must debunk the myth that e-bike fires are often caused by only low quality uncertified batteries, and if all e-bikes had high quality, certified batteries we could reduce the risk dramatically. Think of it this way, do the best EV makers use uncertified or low quality batteries exclusively? No, so why are we seeing EV fires routinely from the industry's most advanced and responsible manufacturers with batteries made in the USA, Japan or Europe?
The press and regulators are focusing on "Chinese batteries" as being the problem. The vehicle did have a "Chinese battery" as reported, but so do iPhones, iPads, and my flawless and beautifully designed laptop and tablet, which are from a Chinese manufacturer, and are not Apple products. Blame is easy, neat, and allows us to think we understand the problem and will have a solution. That is not the case for me. I take all the information, data, and form my own narrative, that is predictive, and ever changing, with each new finding, and product released. I am a detective, realist, and a futurist. It is the only way to move forward, without prejudice.
We see odd events that are unique. For example, a small bumper tap leading to a fire that leaves nothing more than a shell of steel. Why? In one full autopsy, a close colleague discovered the small bumper tap drove a metal part of the bumper holder forward, piercing the battery pack causing it to ignite five minutes later. An anomaly? Who knows. We don’t have vehicle autopsies, which are the only true way to understand every contributing factor. Look at what was left from the vehicle that caused the Incheon event. Look at what is not there. It is a shell, and often we simply don’t have enough left to understand what happened. In medicine we understand much more, because we often can do a full autopsy after a death. Grim, yes, but I teach in corollaries. I don’t lecture and control the narrative, I must be engaging and let my audience see the parallels and come to their own conclusions through thought and ongoing discussions. I learn and alter my best practices constantly based on the new events and hopefully new facts learned. Now is the time for dynamic thinking. We must not anchor on any one idea, such as “Chinese batteries”, sprinklers, the brand of battery, or the battery’s country of origin. I know this is a long answer, but I drive one of the safest vehicles sold and I am not immune from injury and accidents. Systems could fail for many reasons or I could be hit by a large truck, which would cause all of my safety systems to fail, due to the speed and weight of the vehicle that hits me.
The battery source of the vehicle that started the event at Incheon may not have been a factor at all. “Chinese batteries” can be exceptionally safe, and well made. Are buildings forbidding iPhones, iPads and Apple Watch users from entering a structure?
In the last year I completed full risk assessments and provided recommendations for several clients. I was asked to be the EV, EV charger, infrastructure, e-mobility, lithium-ion and hydrogen consultant. If you combine the scope of the work I did in the last year, the spaces I surveyed see more than six hundred million visitors annually and includes airports, bridges, tunnels, ports, rail, office buildings, auto repair facilities, residential towers, bus terminals, and parking both above and below ground. Working closely with Senior Leadership and the C-Suite, I also provided input for best practices, policies, procedures and training. The vehicle may have had an electrical issue, had a puncture to the pack the owner was unaware of, or may have been damaged if a speed bump was hit accidently or when a friend used the car and did not tell the owner. You can’t see the battery nor can you diagnose it on the spot. Or it could have little to do with the vehicle itself, it could have been a problem with the charger used. One premier brand had a recall for the vehicle, and the charger at the same time. This is a new frontier of infinite possible factors of failures.And, when recalls from government and manufacturers issue “do not drive the vehicle, charge the vehicle, or park it indoors, until the remedy is available” notices are received, do people listen? I had to go through two class action suits against a large vehicle manufacturer. All the nineteen parties in one suit against the manufacturer clearly state they are still driving the vehicles, because they can't afford to buy another vehicle or not use it to get to work. So, where does the fault lie if the plaintiff brings that vehicle into an underground parking garage?
At times, a manufacturer discovers a problem and issues a recall, stating that the auto should not be driven, parked indoors, or charged until a fix is in place. Unfortunately, this does not guarantee that the car will not be used. The owner of the auto may have no choice. Most people rely on their car to get to work and care for their families. This became apparent in two large scale recalls in the US. These recalls resulted in two class action suits and every plaintiff clearly stated that they continued to use the vehicle.
Today, I read that Korea does not want to not allow EVs with a state of charge higher than 80 ~ 90% or some to be determined level that is less than 100% in underground garages. State of charge does play a role, but looking at the bigger picture, EVs have the golden rule of never letting the battery go below a 10% state of charge, because it can permanently damage the battery or above 80% state of charge. So, realistically virtually all EVs are non-compliant. That is our realistic baseline. Because range anxiety is an issue for EV owners and rental agencies they are constantly charging their EVs above the 80% level, or worse, topping them off.
A demonstration proving that the state of charge has no relationship to battery failure or fires, is to find an old remote control device with lithium-ion batteries that has not been used in years. Open it up, and often you may find damaged cells that have a white or green powder residue and / or swelling of the battery. Did state of charge matter? No, the battery can fail at a zero state of charge.
Lerner's proposed solution for electric vehicle fires includes installing electronic readers for barcodes or QR codes in typical parking booths, which then wirelessly transmit information about the vehicle's propulsion type to the parking structure or area.
So, how did we get to this tipping point of events, when the Nissan Leaf was not a problem in 2010 in the USA?
William: The Leaf was a small, light vehicle with a small battery. It was born to be "green" and help the environment. It was not fast, nor were the demands placed on the battery extreme.
Fast forward to 2025 we are routinely seeing high performance EVs with 1,020 horsepower, and 123 kilowatt hour batteries. One model even has a range extender that adds another 47 kilowatt hour battery for a total of roughly 170 kilowatt hours. The Leaf in 2010? 24 kilowatt hour battery, 107 horsepower and a zero to 60 mph time of 11.3 seconds. That vehicle has seven Leaf batteries for comparison of kilowatt battery size. Today’s high performance EVs, with many new and more powerful versions on the horizon? 0 ~ 60mph 2.1 seconds. 5.38 times faster than the Leaf. Roughly put, so I don’t use up all the usable space on the web, due to my long answers, is that the more you ask of a battery, and the harder you work it, the more likely it is to fail. Think about any powered appliance in your life.
<저작권자 © AEM. 무단전재 및 재배포, AI학습 이용 금지>